'ello all. I've been + for almost 20 years now. undetectable viral load for the last several years. am completely bisexual (fence, what fence?) and its always been very interesting (and sometimes painful) that women are rarely put off by it but, and ii hate to say it, so many men are. I alwayz tell, that's me. stats show some 50% of + people don't (!) if they're using condoms, not to mention how many just don't even know their status.
since using condoms is extremely safe as transmission female to male is much much less common than the other way around, why is it that so many men get so afraid just because i'm up front about it - I'm also internationally a safer sex educator so if anybody knows how to keep safe i do. its almost like its not even a rational reaction, fear is just fear.
its not personal. and, its of course extremely personal. at the least I'd like to find a way to be with myself so my feelings don't as hurt. bottom line if somebody doesn't really dig me and its a problem they aren't for my anyway . . . but, to say the very least, the fear/rejection because of it is fricking drag.
feedback, you all are at least having the discussion and so i figure are pretty educated/aware . . . thanks
since using condoms is extremely safe as transmission female to male is much much less common than the other way around, why is it that so many men get so afraid just because i'm up front about it - I'm also internationally a safer sex educator so if anybody knows how to keep safe i do. its almost like its not even a rational reaction, fear is just fear.
its not personal. and, its of course extremely personal. at the least I'd like to find a way to be with myself so my feelings don't as hurt. bottom line if somebody doesn't really dig me and its a problem they aren't for my anyway . . . but, to say the very least, the fear/rejection because of it is fricking drag.
feedback, you all are at least having the discussion and so i figure are pretty educated/aware . . . thanks
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Thu, December 20, 2007 - 7:38 PMi've been away for a week. and, amazed. not one comment. everybody on here is all about hiv awareness one presumes. here's to dealing with a topic raised by someone who IS actually dealing with HIV situations regarding dating. and nada. not one comment. how utterly odd. -
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Thu, December 20, 2007 - 8:33 PMI can't really relate, sex-wise, because to my knowledge, I've never had sex with an HIV-positive male. But I can tell you, that from a nurse practitioner's standpoint, most of the "public" is uneducated. Even the people who are educated are uneducated. I take call from people with occupational exposures to "hazardous body fluids," and people are almost always freaked out when I talk to them. Even when I explain the risk (0.03% risk from a known HIV+ person, from an artery or vein to an artery or vein), the fear is often overwhelming. I think probably, some people are just not willing to take even the most unlikely and minute chance.
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Re: I'm + . . . THANK you!
Sat, March 15, 2008 - 5:44 PMI have been away from this tribe for awhile and just read all the wonderful posts and replies. Thank you. KSea especially. hadn't known and I really felt your words deeply. And, I'd gotten on as I had news to post just in from my old doc who is a premier AIDS specialist in NYC (where i am currently freezing my butt off) . . . will start a new topic for it . . .
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 3:40 PMI feel like I'm not sure what you are asking. Could you re-state the request, please? I'll be happy to try to answer.
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Sun, December 30, 2007 - 4:37 PMWell, to be honest, I don't know what to say.
Fear sucks.
I guess it partially, unfortunately, falls on you to try to help educate men as to what the risks are and aren't. Ignorance tends to breed fear. It's hard to necessarily blame them specially for their fear, because HIV is still drilled into many people's heads as that horrible disease you don't want to be anywhere near. It scares them enough to put them at risk, because they won't get tested. It's a bad situation put in place by sex education that focuses on scare tactics instead of risk-assessed awareness.
Why is it so many men are afraid? Well, cause most people, male or female, don't say their status upfront, and people who do are scary, I suspect, because it causes them to reflect on their own lack of knowledge of their status... it's a cycle of fear. You know your status, which reminds them they don't know theirs, which suggests they might be positive too, which terrifies them into wanting to be away from the person that started the squiggly scary feeling. It probably doesn't help that, well-meaning though the campaign is, there are lots of posters declaring that many many people are unaware of their status. People are uncomfortable and scared, so it's easier to avoid the issue by not talking about status at all than to be upfront.
But I'm sure you know all of this already, which is why I didn't say it before. Is there something more detailed you're asking, or do you want confirmation of your beliefs? -
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 2:16 PMi know i'm at almost no risk, but getting tested still makes me quite nervous every time.
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Tue, January 1, 2008 - 7:31 PMI would agree with Quee..
"I suspect, because it causes them to reflect on their own lack of knowledge of their status... it's a cycle of fear. You know your status, which reminds them they don't know theirs, which suggests they might be positive too, "
Also there is alot of shame out there about sex, then when you add an STD on top of it.
some people have the whole; if you have an STD you are dirty thinking, which also adds more shame about on top of the sex issures.(am I making sence? )
When really more that 50% of the population has had some form of STD in there lifes.
I comend(spelling?) you for being responsible and commuicating with your partners about your status.
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 7:45 PMI prefer to take as few risks as possible but that being said I take each person as an individual when considering whether I deem it too unsafe to play with them or not, a large part of that being their honesty, knowledge and how they play.
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Sat, January 26, 2008 - 4:04 PMHIV+ may actually be a sign of HEALTH. Antibodies to tetanus and measles indicate passive immunity; i. e., you do not have lockjaw nor measles.
Antibodies to HIV are not clearly delineated as fighting an active infection or retaining passive immunity. ELISA and Western Blot do NOT differentiate.
African-Americans inherit malaria antibodies, which throws ELISA and Western Blot fasle-positive. So do 1st and 3rd trimester of pregnancy. So does the flu. I know of one woman who tested positive 10 times. On the 11th test, negative.
Hallmark testing for the presence of the VIRUS = PCR.
See www.ehivtest.com/products/pcr-test and www.ComplementaryMD.com
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Communication and new territory
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 5:38 PMI can see you're no stranger to venturing into new territory :-) As you know, often people or ideas in the vanguards sometimes get more rejection or negativity than they deserve.
Your conversation with many people may be the first time they have had an honest communication with someone who is +.
It's perhaps small solace, but your honesty and the fact of having that conversation will, whether they like it or not, help move their awareness forward a notch or two. This probably helps them have the next conversation with the next person they meet, as well as give them a role model for honesty and communication in the event they become positive in future.
And then, some guys just want to get laid as simply as possible, and/or find an excuse to do it without the condom. That degree of shallowness may not be a good match for someone of character anyway.
Luyah
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 6:20 PMAnd out of the depths comes the oh so vacant moderator, but I have been closely watching and you seem to be doing fine on your own - but sWitch, you strike home, and now, thankfully, I have something to say.
I to have been +, for over 20 years. It has been a difficult road, and has created some hard times - but these days (unlike the past) I am up front, tell anyone as soon as even a glimmer of something sexual might happen. Before anything starts, I give them the chance to go away - and yeah, many have. Still, some have appreciated thye honesty and explored, but only briefly. After a long while I thought that was what I was destined for - short time lovers, as certainly because of the nasty wigglies inside of me, it couldn;t be long term - there are clean people out there...
Yes, it's extremely personal. It can't help but be for people in our position, but there is no blame - they don't turn away to hurt us, and sometimes, perhaps, it is as hard for them to leave as it is for us to see them go.
That has been the predominant repitition over the years, with few exceptions - lovers for a short time, if at all. I got weary of it, and pretty much gave up the possibility of anything - anyone, lasting in my life. In the brief lovers that I have had, I did my best to educate them - not only in hopes that they would stick around, but for them, as well. In living with this for so long, I was suprised and appalled at how little people know, even these days.
That was the birth of this tribe.
Since then it has cetainly been difficult, and as I said, I had, through experience, resigned myself to being alone - the "woe is me" factor, knowing that there were other wonderful people out there who carried much less risk, and I was nothing more than a brief, exciting adventure - but nothing worthy of anything past that. Regardless of how much I might have matched with a person, there was always that complication...
But the reason I write this is because I have something positive to say.
There is someone out there.
I gave up hoping to find that person long ago, out of emotional necessity - it was just far too much to bear inside, always being let down, but understanding completely why they left or just simply didn't begin. I stopped hoping for that person long. long ago, but recently, something strange happened.
I found someone - or better said, she found me. It began on the internet - actually, on Tribe where she wrote a beautiful response to something I was doing. We talked, online, and as it grew, when it felt like it was getting to that point, I made certain that she knew what she was getting into... Well, at least as far as the virus goes. The rest of me is something else entirely, but - well, sWitch, everything is working out beautifully.
If you're just looking for fun, there are certainly people out there willing to play, and please do your best to educate them - thyey probably need it, and hopefully might spread the knowledge you give them around.
If you'r looking for something beautiful and lasting, I can now say - don't despair. That person just may show up when you least expect it - and honestly, I think it's better not to expect.
Call it trial by fire. If they want to be with you, they will. You have the knowledge to educate them. If it's just a romp in the hay and thay don't value you for anything more than the squishygoodness that was once available to us in so much more of a lighthearted way, then they ain't worth your time.
We have been blessed (?) wih a pretty decent filter for the people we choose to call lovers, or partners, or S.O.'s, or whatever we choose to name the standing - and trust me, though I'm sure you already know this: it takes much more than a body, much more than flesh to create amazing sex. In having those little wigglies inside of us and letting people know about it, we know, without any question, that they really want to be with *us*.
Unless of course they're just incredibly stupid, but hell - we wouldn;t approach them if they were in the first place, would we?
I hope that this said something of value to you, or someone out there. Hells, I'm just learning now that I don't need to forever be alone - and honestly, after so damn long, it's a glorious adjustment to make.
Okay, now I'm starting to babble. I should stop writing...
Thank you for your post, sWitch. I apologize for not responding to it sooner, but I didn't think I had much of value to say - and certainly nothing uplifting.
Now, I do - and it is said.
Love to you, partner in this crazy life of the bad blood wigglies... -
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Fri, February 1, 2008 - 10:36 PMThanks for bringing this up all ... and it bears repeating.
even the educated are not educated
i was a biology major. i took immunology. i even did research and built a computer model on HIV spread. i have always been tested regularly for HIV (my 1st time was because i was asked to be in a study and i would get free tests every 6 months for 2 years) and read the health clinic pamphlets (and boy have THOSE changed over the last 20 years). i taught human anatomy and physiology for 10 years to pre-med and nursing students. i thought i was educated. but i was not.
and when i found out that someone i was seeing was HIV+ i was scared. really, really scared ... not to mention angrier than i had ever been. i realize now that a lot of the anger was a result of my fear, but my heart still pounds hard when i remember it.
so i went to get tested and talk to the doctor ...
and then i found out how much i didn't know. i found out how much of my "knowledge" was anti-sex hype and propaganda. i didn't know that giving a hummer (tribe didn't like the word for BJ spelled out - it underlined it in red) is for all intents and purposes entirely safe - even if you swallow. i didn't know what a viral load even was let alone what it meant to transmission rates or the health of a person. once i talked to the doctor and did some research online, i knew more & i was much calmer while waiting for my results. i had not engaged in naughtiness the medical community would consider unsafe.
i was still pissed at not being given the choice to make my own decision about my own risks, but came to realize that i was 100% to blame for my situation: no std conversation was initiated by me and i was operating from an extremely idealistic assumption - that if someone could hurt me, they would warn me first.
but back to the point - if i weren't poly i think i could date someone who was HIV+ but i think i fall into the trap kSea described of not expecting it to last very long or deepen into love. i think the probability would be low that my boyfriends would each and all agree to the risk.
the main reason i might very well short-change the potential of the relationship is the lack of unsafe sex in the future. there is definitely a (perceived? or real?) intimacy inferred from *happy dancing* free and unfettered sex in our culture. its seen as an indicator of love and trust and commitment, and in some relationships its a more considered step than engagement or marriage.
while writing this i have examined why i feel that unprotected sex is so necessary to a serious loving relationship. i have definitely had some pretty awful and non-intimate unprotected sex. i have also had deeply moving and loving sex even with the pesky protection causing all sorts of delays and distractions. i currently am not on the pill so i use a condom with my bfs most of the time anyway. now that i really think on it ... that price doesn't seem so steep to be with someone you love.
thanks for the post, the honesty of the responses & for making me question my emotions ... again ... not to mention for reading to the end of this long response. there were so many points i wanted to respond to!
k
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Mon, February 11, 2008 - 9:46 AMHehehe, I can vouch for being someone who would happily learn everything there is to know about safer playing for kSea's sake, HIV+ or not. He's hot. :)
So it can definitely happen! You're just kinda stuck with people who know a good amount about safer sex and risk factors... hey... that doesn't sound too bad, actually.
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Re: I'm + . . .women's reactions, and men's . . .
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 10:15 PMYou know , I was just siting hear thinking about what you wrote.
I do think it is a trip, that men get so freaked out . Maybe its there lack of knowlege(spelling?), That you are also fine about talking about it?
People have such a hard time with sexual discloser. I am sorry to hear you are going through this.
I have to sit and think about this for a while, and ask some of my co-workers (we work with + clients in the TL)/